B"H
For some reason I am not at all into the subject of people from all over the world claiming to be part of the Lost Tribes. Maybe I am too Israeli to get excited about such claims. Honestly, it sounds rather ridiculous to me, and I am going with the haredi opinion not to accept such people as Jews, if they don't undergo an orthodox conversion (Giur).
For a couple of years now, the so - called "Bnei Menashe" are streaming to Israel. There are Indians, if really Jewish or not, who claim that they are from the Tribe of Menashe. How can anyone dare to claim this today ? It says in rabbinic literature that only the Meshiach will be able to determine who of the Jews belongs to which Tribe.
Many books have been written so far where the authors state that they found solutions. The Who is Who claim. Some even go so far to propose a DNA - Test.
I admit not knowing enough about DNA - Tests of Cohanim or Lost Tribes. This sounds far too science fiction for me. Can there really be a DNA - proof ?
From time to time, we read articles about people from all over the world claiming to be Jewish and a Lost Tribe Club. Peru, India and even some Africans.
I am just not getting excited about all the statements. As I said, I am too Israeli. And the "too Israeli" opinion is that there are people in this world who look for a better future. The poor from Third World Countries. Suddenly everyone wants to be Jewish and come to Israel where they hope for a better life.
Isn't it strange that people have never seemed to claim "Lost Tribe identity" hundreds of years ago. Only recently, the whole thing has started and Indian "Jews" have been flocking into Israel since.
First, the Chief Rabbinate (Rabbanut) didn't accept them as halachically Jewish at all, and all of them had to undergo a legal orthodox conversion (Giur). Some time ago, the Indians started doing their own thing and just arrived in Israel without informing the authorities. They came, no one knew where to put them and the worst was that they refused a conversion course and insisted on their self - appointed Jewishness.
Last Sunday, 18 couples got married at the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem. I was in the building when the event took place, as we had a shiur upstairs. Downstairs the wedding celebration took place. Ynet wrote about the event but didn't mention anything about the Jewishness of the couples. Someone at the event told me that they all had converted and now got married again. According to Halacha. And as the weddings took place in the Rabbanut building, they must be halachically Jewish.
However, I am not too convinced and remain skeptical. Are they Jewish or not ?
But, as I said before, I am too Israeli and see the whole world claiming that everyone is just Jewish.
However if people look for a blossoming future, why not go to Europe or the States ? Those countries restrict immigration and it seems to be much easier to claim a Lost Tribe identity.
Reality is that Israelis (not necessarily me) are racists and the Indians, no matter if Jewish or not, always remain outsiders in society.
Thursday, March 6, 2008
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B'H M.
ReplyDeleteYour wrong about the lost tribes, Their is lots of support for some of theses groups most of all the Indian claims. also the Chinese have some groups that have been in China for two thousand years I've even been to their synagogue its been my experience that the Black hats are more racist than any other group and their history only started in the 1850s.
Heck the Reform movement pre dates them by 20 years This is so silly! The Rabbis have more important things to do than play the "Who's the Jew card." Unless of course they are Christens selling their stick Making claims they are Jews is a joke. Of course you already know this.
B"H
ReplyDeleteI might be wrong but I don't believe that anyone is able to determine any tribal identity today.
I know that there is endless literature and everybody seems to know something. When you are Israeli you see things different. To us it looks like all the poor want to come here and have a good life because Europe and the US closed their borders. Maybe it sounds racist to you, but here it is reality.
I have seen many Indians in Israel claiming to be from a "Lost Tribe", however, they still retain all their idols and customs. The women wear the sari (which shows a lot of skin even for a secular society) and they keep the red dot on the forhead, etc., etc. I agree, that it is impossible to tell who is a Jew, but I do know that the real Jews have kept the same Torah and have always refrained from idolatry customs.
ReplyDeleteMiriam,
ReplyDeletegenealogical DNA tests are not science fiction anymore. There are known parts of the human genome that change very little over generations. The Y-DNA passes on from father to son without modification and this information can be used to trace ancestral lines (Y-STR testing). Research about this has already been going on for a decade or so..
This is a must-read: An article on Aish explains how Y-STR tests started and how modern studies confirm ancient Jewish traditions.
www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/the_cohanim_-_dna_connection.asp
And here is some more background from Wikipedia (always take it with a pinch of salt): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test#Cohanim_ancestry
B"H
ReplyDelete@Dwave
Yes, I know that scientists claim to have find a method. But honestly, I don't think that every Jew can be determined by a special DNA.
Miriam,
ReplyDeleteno, not every Jew can be determined from DNA and I doubt that the scientists wanted to proof that. It would be very questionable, unethical and could spawn all kinds of bad and bogus 'science'.
From a Halachic point of view it is also grossly irrelevant.
There are other more legitimate reasons for genetic testing. When my wife was pregnant our doctors sent us to do a multitude of (expensive) tests because they take Tay-Sachs really seriously in Israel (I am of Eastern European origin and my wife has French-Moroccan ancestry). It was one of these moments when I thought - Wow, amazing what they can do today. In Europe this surely isn't on the list of routine pre-natal tests.
Also a lot of bad things happened in the past that wouldn't happen today: For example, in the time of the British Mandate and when the State of Israel was still young there where many areas with a big Malaria problem. I live in one of these areas on the northern coastal plain. Because of lack of testing it wasn't known that many Jews from Europe would also show a strong adverse reaction (Hemolytic Anemia) to the the then common Anti-Malaria drugs like Primaquin and Chloroquine. It wasn't until the mid 50ies that the picture became more clear and showed that also people of Mediterranean descent can develop these symptoms.
(sorry if is this is a triple-post, blogger.com seems to hang)
B"H
ReplyDeleteThe whole subject of DNA or not also reminds me about the Shidduch business. For more than twenty years, Haredim in Mea Shearim and probably elsewhere have been undergoing DNA - Tests before their weddings.
They don't marry without such a test anymore, in order to avoid handycapped children or serious deseases. Sounds rassist but it this has been reality for many years. Even the Israeli author Amnon Levy describes in in his book "The Haredim" (1987).
I am not too up - to - date with all the DNA science going on but, nevertheless, I think that claiming to be from a certain tribe is totally exaggerated.
Miriam,
ReplyDeletethanks for shedding more light on this. I didn't know yet that pre-natal DNA are also accepted by the Haredim.
Yet another preconception about Haredim goes down the drain.. (you can also tell this to someone when asked about the use of blogging - resolving prejudice)
But what you call 'racist' is one of the sad realities in our small and troubled middle east theater: Israel is still - 60 years after the birth of Medinat Israel - very busy with it's mere survival. The sad truth is that there aren't much resources to support handicapped children and that many parents opt for termination.
There are good places though - I have close ties to http://dys-yeladim.com/ and this is an excellent place. But waiting lists are long, economic pressure is always tough and funding is mostly from private sources.
What Jewish Ethics have to say about it is a completely different cup of tea. Our inability to judge the ultimate good puts us in no position to judge. And according to our Ethics it would be immoral not to accept a handicapped child. What we know about his/her bigger mission in the spiritual realm of life?
It is a very difficult matter. Everyone will have to duke out such a decision with himself/herself and Hashem. I don't see any shortcuts here, even with the ever advancing scientific methods or by the rather liberal abortion laws in the State of Israel.
I don't want to argue here neither pro- or con-abortion. I just wish that the circumstances would be much better and less harsh for challenged families.
B"H
ReplyDeleteHaredi society is not easy to understand.:-)))
Among certain chassidic groups, the DNA - test before the wedding is a MUST. One who refuses to go or fails the test, can say "Goodbye" to the Shidduch. No wedding !!!
I don't know much about the subject, but there is a particular genetic problem with Ashkenazim. Not all the time but, at least sometimes. The genetic disorder includes some Ashkenazim from Russia and other Eastern European places.
I only read this in a few papers and cannot say too much about it. On the other hand, also Sephardic Jews sometimes have genetic problems. It is always positive when Jews marry Jews from different communities and not only among each other.
Let's take the Iranian Jews as an example: The "Parsim" mostly marry among themselves although there community is rather small.
It caught my eye seeing so many handycapped Jews of Iranian origin and I asked an American friend who is married to a Parsi.
She said that this is a big problem within the Iranian community that not enough of them marry out (Kurdish, Ashkenazim, etc.).
But coming back to the haredi society:
Haredim are always afraid of loosing their reputation.
What do the neighbours think and so on. This is an extremely important issue among them. You need a good reputation in order to get a good Shidduch for your kids.
It is like buying a new car and showing off before the neighbours.
The same in haredi society. As soon as there is soemthing in your family to pick on, people react in different ways. Gossip starts.
Even if they don't tell it straight into your face, neighbours talk behind your back. Society will know and your kids might not be accepted at special Yeshivot anymore.
The less important the Yeshiva, the less the Shidduch because you are not considered a Talmid Chacham. And so on.
And if someone has a handycapped child in the family, of course, the Shidduch chances for the siblings shrinks.
This might sound brutal, however, it is reality.